Changing billing terms on PREPAID ACCOUNTS

You are changing the terms of prepaid agreements? Unlimited reasoning is what I paid for, for a year in advance. How do you consider it ethical to do this instead of raising prices on new subscriptions and renewals? We had an agreement and you have had my money this whole time. I only had to upgrade because the AI constantly sabotages projects by forgetting changes were made or holding onto legacy design elements and forcing them in randomly for no reason. Support did nothing to help except to say I shouldn’t have any problems with all of the wasted tokens it consumes now that I’ve upgraded to unlimited.

Why aren’t we, the people who have paid up front and supported you, being grandfathered in for the money you’ve already been paid??

You think you’re doing us a favor by somehow saying don’t worry, you’re still paying the same amount but we’re taking away the main reason you considered it a remotely affordable option??? That is a bit insulting.

Hi Sid,

I understand your frustration, especially if you chose Pro for unlimited reasoning time.

We can’t sustainably offer unlimited reasoning time at Pro’s current price. Moving to 2,500 minutes- over 40 hours - per month allows us to keep the subscription price the same while continuing to support customers and improve Zoo. Zoo still covers costs beyond what your subscription pays for.

All Pro users have also received a fresh 2,500 minutes to use for the rest of October, regardless of their usage earlier this month.

We’re constantly working to improve the product. PLEASE share any specific issues with support so our team can investigate.

I recognize that this refresh doesn’t fully address your concern about changing the plan during a period you had already paid for. If you decide to cancel, we have it set up so that you receive a prorated refund for the unused portion of your annual subscription. Cancellation takes effect immediately, and your account moves to the Free plan.

Best,
Persis

Again, you seem to think saying don’t worry, you’ll still paying the same for limited usage instead of the unlimited usage you prepaid for is somehow acceptable.

This isn’t my “frustration”, it is a post-facto change to a pre-paid plan. It is a change in terms to reduce promised delivery of services for the agreed upon price already paid.

if the reasoning didn’t waste so many tokens introducing mistakes and flaws in designs that alone would reduce the operational cost more than limiting the paying customers who have supported you. We wouldn’t need to spend repeated cycles to try to fix the mistakes introduced. The mistakes are the only reason i upgraded in the first place after support did nothing to help, on repeated events, as noted in the original post. The majority of Reasoning usage is probably the same repeated changes back and forth as users try to get AI to fix the flaws it introduces for no explainable reason. Fix that, instead of alienating your supportive prepaid customers and your costs are reduced immensely.

Karan - Why delete your post? It was another perfect illustration of the problem.

Cited how this AI performs compared to others you use, noted the problems with it introducing mistakes and how you also paid for unlimited because at least that gave us the tokens to spend the amount of time needed to fix all of the problems it introduces along the way.

Maybe we could get some more input from others as well.

Perhaps the problems don’t get fixed because that would mean we don’t have to pay more and more to resolve them with our additional time and money.

Here was another similar issue someone reported with Keeper using up all of their tokens in the same fashion - Dispute of $122.71 Zookeeper overrun and failed payment attempt

Seems interesting that so many of us have had the same problems where the only solution is keep putting in your time and pay extra money to fix the issues the system introduces.

Another example here

And another here

Another example of having to repeat waste time on multiple failed activities

Another here

And more wasted credits

So… why not fix the problems being caused by the system requiring more and more of our time to fix? That reduces your costs and doesn’t hurt your customer base. Again, this isn’t frustration because of why I went pro, it is a breach of agreed service terms. I and many others HAD to go pro to deal with the issues the system itself creates and inserts in projects, or fails to render, or pulls from 3 versions ago without reason so we can pay more to fix it. Seriously.

Instead you say things like don’t worry, you’ll still pay the same price (for less) or you can cancel and get a prorated refund - which again is a cop out on living up to the prepaid agreement.

I think we all deserve an explanation better than we keep growing so instead of improving our services to save cycles we’re breaching your agreements in the name of profits.

if this post or thread disappear I hope people asked themselves why.

So… that’s it? No reply on how Zoo is going to make this right after Breach of Agreement?

Not going to respond to valid concerns raised and multiple examples of how cycle time is wasted on system flaws? What are you doing to make it right? It will be much more challenging to get people to upgrade when they know they’ll just be losing all of those minutes to system issues. I know I wouldn’t have bothered, and I’m sure many others feel the same way.

I think there are some complex issues at hand and you make very valid points. Honestly the Zoo team might not have the answers to the issues you’ve presented (though they do come across as tone deaf to the concerns you and others bring up with their replies and it often reads as though AI itself if replying). Unfortunately the Zoo team fumbled this transition so badly it may end up destroying the user base as it exists now and shy other new users away in the future. From a business stand point it wasn’t sustainable to offer unlimited in the first place but it should have been an announced change with a transparent timeline and then a process to switch, not flip the switch and play catch up. While I will play devils advocate in that this is new tech and there’s always going to be growing pains we need to be patient and understanding with, that also requires transparency from their standpoint, which is the main crux of the issue, in my opinon.

Thank you so much for the feedback. This is insanely helpful. We are always trying to make zookeeper more efficient. We’d love to grant you more credits and we will set them in your account because you gave us a good feedback. We are happy to do this for any other pro users who give us feedback through the support channels. Of course, if you are unhappy, you can downgrade at any time for a prorated refund, but please give us a chance to make this better and we hope to make you happy.

I think what Zoo can do to help mitigate concerns about Zookeeper burning tokens is to design and implement a way for us to flag and report in real time when Zookeeper has an issue. Is it more work for you guys, absolutely, but maybe it will catch issues across the board and better help Zoo train its Zookeeper in the process. That way if a reported hiccup is a valid issue and shouldn’t have used extra tokens (and not a user giving a bad prompt) Zoo can issue a credit for the tokens and keep users happy. If that isn’t possible then Zoo needs to design a simple reporting tool for users to report when bugs happen, and no I don’t mean put it on GitHub or something like that, I mean a step by step form. Again, lots more work for your team BUT in my opinion the only way you’re going to help alleviate some of the conflicts of a learning AI. What are you thoughts on that @X.Sid ?

We have this forum where we report issues and very little to nothing seems to get fixed. Support’s solution to wasted cycles has been to do nothing. They changed token renew date from first of the month to your signup anniversary with zero communication about that change (you can read inquiries people have made here). I didn’t get renewed tokens for the month, contacted support and they gave me some tokens once and this was in a thread where others had not gotten their paid token rollover either. The next time i tried to use my tokens before the end of the month and it didn’t renew on the first as they said it does before. Now it happens on your signup date anniversary each month (even though it had not been updated then either) and I contacted them about AI waste eating up my time and needing them to look into it. I was ignored until after I upgraded to a pro plan to unlock more time to finish my project. Then the response was thanks, you shouldn’t have any problems now that you have unlimited reasoning time with your pro plan upgrade. That’s right - not renewing on anniversary as claimed, not renewing on first of month either - then don’t you worry, now that you paid more you should be fine. That itself was distasteful, now the message is post-facto we changed your prepaid unlimited reasoning time and cut it down without telling you in advance but don’t worry - you’ll still pay the same price. SAME PRICE FOR WHAT? MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO RUN OUT OF TOKENS AND PAY MORE BY THE MINUTE??? If the business model wasn’t sustainable then it shouldn’t have been available. I supported them with an exorbitantly large subscription price ONLY because the system seems designed to inject problems and extort us for more money to fix them. If we didn’t have to waste so many processing cycles “fixing” things the system decides to inject and problems it creates then ZOO’s costs would be reduced.

So far they have done NOTHING to deal with the system problems because it was making them more money pushing people to buy unlimited time BECAUSE WE HAD TO.

Now they take away time we PREPAID for in a BUSINESS AGREEMENT because they aren’t getting to keep excess profits as processing costs increase. That is a THEM PROBLEM. They violated our prepaid business agreements with ZERO NOTICE. They didn’t even start trying to credit a little extra in this month until AFTER THE BACKLASH. What good is giving me a whole 2500 credits for a couple of days before it disappears on my anniversary date?

The way to cut costs is to fix the problem. Instead they send minutes of usage on the side as a way to try to get people to not post their concern about this fraudulent business behavior. Getting some bonus tokens as hush money isn’t how you fix the problem. Thanks for the tokens, but that doesn’t make it right. Any prepaid agreements should be honored. Price increases ONLY happen at subscription signup or renewal, not mid-term.

Fix the AI to stop sabotaging our work to get us to use up our tokens and buy more. Even before this change I had to constantly tell the AI that we had unlimited tokens. Every time I would start working on something it would say something like “Looking at 28 tokens but our budget is only 12 so I have to limit xyz” which was short-changing our reasoning time to begin with and sabotaging solutions to what it could do as quickly as possible and choose paths to limit how much work or analysis was put into things. That’s a problem, too - that’s pretty sneaky but we could all see it if we read what was going on in the “thinking” section.

So again, let’s get those unlimited minutes back for ALL prepaid Pro accounts and let people decide if they want to continue doing business with you when they reach their subscription renewal date. That’s the point of paying for an annual plan - we locked in an agreement. You breached the agreement without notice or warning.

Brandon if you propose a system that lets us submit stolen reasoning time consider it is NOT a large lift or effort to add a form -but it is better to have it here as well so there is transparency on just how often we are all hit with the same shady practices. I don’t really want excuses from them, I want them to restore service to the agreed upon levels for the agreed upon and PREPAID price. This is very disreputable way of going about business, and you shouldn’t be duped by the way they want to take everything offline. They would have no sympathy with users if we don’t pay our bill, and you can count on that. If I said hey I agreed to pay you x for this subscription but I’ve cancelled payment at the bank but dont’ worry, you’ll still get to provide me with the same access and service without payment I’d be laughed out of the room. That’s not how it works, it shouldn’t be considered any differently when they are on the side failing to meet their part of the agreement.

Seriously, how does anyone think this is acceptable? It’s clear we don’t, are they just sending everyone else side credits as well trying to get everyone to be quiet?

So far the solution is ignore, bribe, comment how great it is we share feedback, bribe, still do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to honor their agreements or make this right. No fixes to the system’s poor behavior ever that I’ve seen - and they like it that way. It makes more money for them if you have to keep fixing the mistakes they introduce. Why fix that? Processing costs increase, just screw over your customers by removing the only reason they upgraded to be able to fix the flaws the system continues to create. No, giving me a form to type into and never get the situation handled would not be enough for me personally. Everyone should be on here posting about their issues and keeping things transparent instead of being robbed in the dark separately. I appreciate that you are trying to offer solutions but there are no other solutions that are going to make it right. They need to restore us all to our agreed upon service levels and keep up their end of the agreements. If they need more profit they need to fix this to be a more profitable system by IMPROVING IT instead of by reducing agreed up prepaid agreements as a money grab and keeping the problems out there to screw us into paying more as we go on top of having paid for unlimited to get us to sign up. Disgraceful.

The team is working on this thanks!!

I understand your frustration, and I would like to remind you that we prorate refunds so you can get your money back for any unused usage on your subscription. Unfortunately as a company we cannot sustainably have unlimited usage, I personally had unlimited Codex before openai cracked down on it (when it was very new) and let me tell you it was awesome, but I also understand they can’t continue like that. Please continue to give us feedback and the offer remains to pro users who reach out and need more credits we will top you up.

Prorating the refunds does not address that you are violating our prepaid business agreements by changing terms. You clearly do not understand my “frustration” as you put it. This isn’t frustration, it is a very clear and logically expressed concern because you are in violation of our agreement which I locked in with my full year of payment up front. It doesn’t matter if prorate refunds, you’re still violating the terms of the agreement. Codex is also irrelevant. You aren’t Codex and I didn’t have a PREPAID ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTION with them, I have one WITH YOU. What is the point of giving some hush tokens when the AI is just going to suck them all up to fix the problems it introduces? I have not ever heard one mention of addressing the AI problems. All I’ve heard is that you are not interested in fixing anything except to try to get us to stop talking about what disrespectful and immoral business behavior you are engaging in. Costs go up yes, but you increase the rate at RENEWAL TIME, NOT IN BREACH OF PREPAID SUBSCRIPTION PERIODS. Again, if I decided to only pay you $15 for an annual subscription when my bill is due and tell you I still expect the same amount of tokens but I’ve rolled you back to $15 because my budget is unsustainable at this rate you would cut me off completely. I already paid you, now you’re acting like you don’t have an obligation to live up to. If you can’t go on because you overextended yourself then you should get a loan to keep going and address your problems, rake in higher subscription rates from people WHO HAVE NOT ALREADY PREPAID FOR A WHOLE YEAR, and pay off that loan while you address the failings of your own software. Again, this is very distasteful. Your refund policy does not fix anything. Your “we understand your frustration” nonsense does not fix anything. You need to honor your prepaid annual subscriptions and grandfather every one of them in ahead of your DECREASED service levels. You are in breach. Do better.

Thats disingenuous to claim we don’t care about zookeeper being inefficient when I said explicitly above we did and the team explicitly is looking into the feedback in this thread and that we appreciated the feedback on that. Not only that I told Brandon we were working on his idea for giving feedback about when zookeeper sucks in the app itself. I’m unsure how else to make you happy, you have yet to hit the limit in your account and we are happy to reup it when it runs out especially with more feedback on how we make zookeeper more efficient. You have a lot of credits.